Comments on: Not the way to do it http://landgazr.megaweblog.com/2006/05/01/not-the-way-to-do-it/ No food for thought here, just appetizers! Fri, 05 Sep 2008 20:24:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU by: landgazr http://landgazr.megaweblog.com/2006/05/01/not-the-way-to-do-it/#comment-16 Tue, 02 May 2006 21:18:10 +0000 http://landgazr.megaweblog.com/2006/05/01/not-the-way-to-do-it/#comment-16 Thanks for your comment, greenink! Are you inferring that my points are invalid because I am part of an "anti-immigration crowd" and therefore spreading disinformation? If so, I'd suggest seeing the world in less "black-and-white" terms. Anyway, onto your point. Yes, many illegals get taxes withheld and all arguably pay sales tax. Where the balance lies, I do not know. If you have a source that illustrates this, by all means, send me a link. (And even though the IRS started issuing tax IDs in 1996, illegals use them to apply for things like mortgages when they were never meant to be used in that fashion. Banks that do this are, literally, aiding lawbreakers.) Also, 9/11 heightened our sensibilities to porous and insecure borders. You also mention most illegals pay into Social Security but will never draw from it. Are you using that as a justification for them staying here? If you are, you are advocating them getting taxed without representation - we milk them to compensate for Congress' propensity to draw from the SS Trust Fund. That doesn't sound very "dignified" to me.  You and I both know that the U.S. has not rolled out a de facto welcome mat. There are intrinsic rights possessed by all people, as enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, but you do not acknowledge the practical matters attendant with a nation's sovereignty. I never said that I would deny things like food or urgent medical care to a family in need. But like it or not, the reality is that we are primarily a free market society and everything has a cost. Illegals are a large group, a great many of which partake of social programs and don't give back to the system. It seems there is no argument on that point. <strong>That being said</strong>, however, this illustrates the need for immigration reform that does not focus on security alone. I'd rather have them learn English, pay back taxes and bring the ones here into the system, while at the same time looking at ways to discourage more illegal immigration. Thanks for your comment, greenink! Are you inferring that my points are invalid because I am part of an “anti-immigration crowd” and therefore spreading disinformation? If so, I’d suggest seeing the world in less “black-and-white” terms. Anyway, onto your point. Yes, many illegals get taxes withheld and all arguably pay sales tax. Where the balance lies, I do not know. If you have a source that illustrates this, by all means, send me a link. (And even though the IRS started issuing tax IDs in 1996, illegals use them to apply for things like mortgages when they were never meant to be used in that fashion. Banks that do this are, literally, aiding lawbreakers.) Also, 9/11 heightened our sensibilities to porous and insecure borders. You also mention most illegals pay into Social Security but will never draw from it. Are you using that as a justification for them staying here? If you are, you are advocating them getting taxed without representation - we milk them to compensate for Congress’ propensity to draw from the SS Trust Fund. That doesn’t sound very “dignified” to me.  You and I both know that the U.S. has not rolled out a de facto welcome mat. There are intrinsic rights possessed by all people, as enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, but you do not acknowledge the practical matters attendant with a nation’s sovereignty. I never said that I would deny things like food or urgent medical care to a family in need. But like it or not, the reality is that we are primarily a free market society and everything has a cost. Illegals are a large group, a great many of which partake of social programs and don’t give back to the system. It seems there is no argument on that point. That being said, however, this illustrates the need for immigration reform that does not focus on security alone. I’d rather have them learn English, pay back taxes and bring the ones here into the system, while at the same time looking at ways to discourage more illegal immigration.

]]> by: greenink http://landgazr.megaweblog.com/2006/05/01/not-the-way-to-do-it/#comment-15 Tue, 02 May 2006 18:05:11 +0000 http://landgazr.megaweblog.com/2006/05/01/not-the-way-to-do-it/#comment-15 Actually, the tax non-payment issue is one of the bigger myths perpetrated by the anti-immigration crowd. Illegal immigrants are significant contributors to the social security fund - a fund from which most will never draw any benefits. In addition to paying sales taxes in most states, and property taxes (usually through rent), many undocumented workers do in fact pay taxes through payroll withholdings and direct payments to the IRS. The IRS has been issuing individual taxpayer ID's to people without a regular SSN since 1996. People have a right to feed their families. If they can't do that in one place, they move to another. That's been happening since the last ice age and before. To put up a fence, either literal or figurative and say "you can't come here and make a living" is wrong. It's doubly wrong when your own country engages in trade policies designed to create more wealth in this country at the expense of others. Actually, the tax non-payment issue is one of the bigger myths perpetrated by the anti-immigration crowd. Illegal immigrants are significant contributors to the social security fund - a fund from which most will never draw any benefits.

In addition to paying sales taxes in most states, and property taxes (usually through rent), many undocumented workers do in fact pay taxes through payroll withholdings and direct payments to the IRS. The IRS has been issuing individual taxpayer ID’s to people without a regular SSN since 1996.

People have a right to feed their families. If they can’t do that in one place, they move to another. That’s been happening since the last ice age and before. To put up a fence, either literal or figurative and say “you can’t come here and make a living” is wrong. It’s doubly wrong when your own country engages in trade policies designed to create more wealth in this country at the expense of others.

]]> by: landgazr http://landgazr.megaweblog.com/2006/05/01/not-the-way-to-do-it/#comment-14 Tue, 02 May 2006 07:18:02 +0000 http://landgazr.megaweblog.com/2006/05/01/not-the-way-to-do-it/#comment-14 Thank you for your comment, greenink! This is not a human rights issue, in my view. Human rights refers to things like life, freedom and dignity, the latter of which is hard to justify fully given they broke laws. Granted, all they wanted was a better life, but a country also needs to think about security, sovereignty, and the cost of providing services to both legals and illegals. Working in the U.S. is not like being enslaved in a gulag with sadistic torturers, or "masters" as you put it. To equate our at-will labor environment with a slave camp isn't logical. No one is saying they are sub-human. I'm just saying they aren't legal. They pay taxes? What SSN would they put on their return? Why would an illegal alien risk exposure by paying them money they likely already receive under the table because to do otherwise would open up a business to prosecution? Thank you for your comment, greenink!

This is not a human rights issue, in my view. Human rights refers to things like life, freedom and dignity, the latter of which is hard to justify fully given they broke laws. Granted, all they wanted was a better life, but a country also needs to think about security, sovereignty, and the cost of providing services to both legals and illegals.

Working in the U.S. is not like being enslaved in a gulag with sadistic torturers, or “masters” as you put it. To equate our at-will labor environment with a slave camp isn’t logical.

No one is saying they are sub-human. I’m just saying they aren’t legal.

They pay taxes? What SSN would they put on their return? Why would an illegal alien risk exposure by paying them money they likely already receive under the table because to do otherwise would open up a business to prosecution?

]]> by: greenink http://landgazr.megaweblog.com/2006/05/01/not-the-way-to-do-it/#comment-13 Tue, 02 May 2006 06:21:10 +0000 http://landgazr.megaweblog.com/2006/05/01/not-the-way-to-do-it/#comment-13 You are right. People should wait until they get permission from their masters before protesting. They should not do anything that might inconvenience others. Just stand quietly in a dark corner, maybe with a sign - not too offensive, though. Don't disrupt everything. People will like you. Please. When in the history of humanity have human rights been voluntarily granted by those in power? Human rights are demanded, taken, and kept - not given to the meek. To suggest illegal aliens have no rights is absurd. To suggest they don't pay taxes is even moreso. You are right. People should wait until they get permission from their masters before protesting. They should not do anything that might inconvenience others. Just stand quietly in a dark corner, maybe with a sign - not too offensive, though. Don’t disrupt everything. People will like you.

Please. When in the history of humanity have human rights been voluntarily granted by those in power? Human rights are demanded, taken, and kept - not given to the meek.

To suggest illegal aliens have no rights is absurd. To suggest they don’t pay taxes is even moreso.

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